{"url": "http://open.live.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/6/redir/version/2.0/mediaset/audio-nondrm-download-rss/proto/http/vpid/p02q573s.mp3", "page_url": "http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04pvdhm", "title": "Campylobacter in Chicken; Artificial Intelligence Guru Demis Hassabis; Sexology; Lucy", "show_or_channel": "BBC Inside Science", "date": "2014-11-27", "duration_s": 1677, "type": "podcast", "speakers": ["Demis Hassabis"], "confidence": "medium", "notes": "Magazine episode; Hassabis interview is one segment (~10 min) among others.", "people": ["demis-hassabis"], "id": "2014-11-27_bbc-inside-science-campylobacter-in-chicken-artificial-int", "audio_duration_s": 1746.2335, "worker": "jc-w09", "transcribe_s": 81.0, "model": "large-v3", "segments": [{"start": 0.0, "end": 29.23, "text": "This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK."}, {"start": 29.23, "end": 57.62, "text": "No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need all in one place. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Without LifeLock, fixing identity theft on your own sounds a lot like this. There are 77 callers ahead of you. That's why LifeLock has experts who make the endless calls if your identity is stolen so you won't have to and restores your identity backed by up to $3 million in coverage. There are 73 callers ahead of you."}, {"start": 57.71, "end": 88.22, "text": "Don't leave your identity in limbo. Get LifeLock. Save up to 30% your first year at LifeLock.com slash special offer. Terms apply. Hello you, this is the podcast of Inside Science from the BBC, first broadcast on the 27th of November 2014. I'm Dr Adam Rutherford. For more information, go to bbc.co.uk slash radio4. As ever, all of life is here. The long dead, the about to be created, and the artificial."}, {"start": 88.22, "end": 115.98, "text": "It was 40 years ago today that scientists scrabbling around in the Ethiopian dirt unearthed probably the most famous of our ancestors. I talked to the discoverer of Lucy about who she was, her place in the human story, and the Beatles. We bypass prudery and get stuck into the sordid world of sexology. And we talked to creator of DeepMind, Google's artificial intelligence division, about when, not if, they will build a thinking machine."}, {"start": 116.69, "end": 143.34, "text": "But first, many of you listening will be preparing your dinner right now. And given it's the nation's favourite meat, loads of you will be chopping up chicken. Now the shocking news today is that around three quarters of that chicken will be infected by Campylobacter, a family of bacteria at least 12 species of which are known to cause food poisoning. The estimated cost to the UK economy is \u00a3900 million per year."}, {"start": 143.34, "end": 155.22, "text": "This news has come in a report released today from the Food Standards Agency and the headline is these bacteria are endemic. All supermarkets are implicated and all supply chains too."}, {"start": 155.22, "end": 179.57, "text": "Now, the bacteria don't cause problems for chicken, and they live inside their guts, but butchery practices have enabled the spread of Campylobacter onto meat surfaces and into packaging. There's no need to panic, it doesn't cause outbreaks, and thorough cooking kills all the bugs. But nevertheless, its continued presence, as revealed in today's report, is scandalous, as bacteriologist Professor Hugh Pennington told me."}, {"start": 179.57, "end": 209.44, "text": "What the report does is it embarrasses us even further than we're already embarrassed. It's embarrassing the supermarkets, but scientists are also embarrassed. The Food Standards Agency is embarrassed. I'm pretty confident they won't deny that because it's a problem which we haven't cracked yet and there is no easy solution in sight. So why is it so difficult to control? It's out there in the wild. It gets into the chickens. It doesn't cause any disease in the chickens, so the person growing them doesn't know."}, {"start": 209.44, "end": 238.21, "text": "And then it gets around while the chickens are being processed, while the chickens are being packed. And one doesn't have to eat very many in order to fall ill. So it's a kind of almost a designer bucket away. And it's not as if we haven't known about this for a while. I mean, for more than a decade, we've been aware of the problem of Campylobacter. But it seems that the measures that have been employed to attempt to curb its virulence have just..."}, {"start": 238.21, "end": 252.48, "text": "You know, they haven't really worked at all, have they? They haven't, no. I mean, incredible frustration, really. It's not that people haven't been trying to control it. I mean, everybody in the business, you know, from the food standards agency, public health, retailers."}, {"start": 252.48, "end": 280.4, "text": "Chicken producers, growers and so on, they would love to get rid of this damn thing, you know, because it's an embarrassment to everybody, including the scientists, because we don't know enough about its biology. But what we have done is try to improve briar security in their hen houses, all that kind of thing. And that doesn't seem to have had really any effect at all, despite the fact it is applied. And so, you know, the bug is just, you know, he's just laughing at us."}, {"start": 280.4, "end": 293.79, "text": "So you say that Campylobacter has effectively embarrassed the whole supply chain, including the scientists. You've studied this set of bacteria. What is it about them that makes them so virulent, so resilient?"}, {"start": 293.79, "end": 323.12, "text": "Well, they're resilient in the sense that you only have to eat a small number in order to get infected, which is a bit different with salmonella. Salmonella, you have to eat, you know, hundreds of thousands of salmonellas to fall ill with Campylobacter. Maybe a hundred will do. So it's quite good at infecting people. And one of the problems for the scientists has been that there are lots of different kinds of Campylobacter sort of subtypes. With salmonella, we've had a very good typing system, which has been running since the 1930s, and has enabled us to say, oh, that particular salmonella, it came from cattle."}, {"start": 323.12, "end": 352.34, "text": "That one came from that particular source. We haven't been able to do that with Campylobacter until very recently. We've had to use basically DNA sequencing typing rather than a relatively cheap, simple method which we'd be able to use for generations. So that's been a big stumbling block in understanding where the Campylobacter is coming from. And do you think that fundamentally if we understand more about the bacteria themselves, if we characterize this, if we understand their genomes, is that going to be the basis from which..."}, {"start": 352.34, "end": 374.8, "text": "I think it's an essential component. Unless we understand the biology of the bug, its natural history, and work out what its weak points are, well, we don't know which weak points are going to be susceptible to attack. And like, for example, the biosecurity, we thought, oh, this is going to work, this is going to work, but it hasn't worked anywhere near as well as we would have liked."}, {"start": 374.8, "end": 399.52, "text": "We have to look at more science-based methods, trying to find out exactly where the Campylobacter is coming from, how it gets into the farm birds from wild sources, how it's moving about. That's the sort of thing that we have to have as basic information. I'm not saying that that is necessarily going to give us the answer to control measures, but it might, well, for example, help us to work out whether vaccines are a route worth going down. Because at the moment..."}, {"start": 399.52, "end": 424.94, "text": "The sort of general accepted view is that there's so many different kinds of campylobacter that the vaccine side is going to be very, very difficult to deliver because you'd have to have a vaccine with lots of different sort of campylobacter components in it. And that kind of basic science question has to be answered before we can start putting money into developing vaccines with the prospect that they're actually going to work. Hugh Pennington from the University of Aberdeen."}, {"start": 424.94, "end": 444.61, "text": "Now, the rise of the machines is inevitable. We're not talking science fiction nor crude tools such as your sat-nav, but our acceleration towards building a true artificial intelligence capable not just of computer heavy lifting, but of creativity, of imagination and maybe even consciousness."}, {"start": 444.61, "end": 462.53, "text": "This is a field that attracts some of the finest minds on Earth and some of the biggest business too. Neuroscientist, chess master, world champion gamer Demis Hassabis founded an AI company, DeepMind, in 2011, which was acquired by Google earlier this year."}, {"start": 462.53, "end": 479.12, "text": "for \u00a3400 million. This week, he won the Royal Society's Mullard Award, which recognises individuals whose work in the sciences is likely to contribute to national prosperity. Demis, welcome and huge congratulations. That really is quite something, but also rather a lot of pressure on you there."}, {"start": 479.12, "end": 508.35, "text": "So, yeah, I mean, it is quite a lot of pressure, but, you know, it's good kind of pressure in that this is the sort of pressure that I love. And I've always been fascinated by intelligence and artificial intelligence since I was a young kid. And I think the reason is, is that I always felt that if we could crack intelligence, then we would be able to use that technology to help us as a society solve all the other things that we wanted to master. Now, tell us about what DeepMind is focused on and also why."}, {"start": 508.35, "end": 512.75, "text": "It might contribute to Google's ever-expanding set of services."}, {"start": 512.75, "end": 542.03, "text": "At DeepMind, we're trying to build what we call general learning algorithms. And there's two key aspects to that. So it's the fact that these algorithms learn directly from experiences how to do things. So they're not pre-programmed. And then secondly, we're interested in this idea of generality. So the idea that one system or one set of algorithms out of the box can do multiple tasks without any retraining or reprogramming. So this is what we regard as sort of true AI. And it's a kind of new type of..."}, {"start": 542.03, "end": 571.25, "text": "See, that does sound like the same type of intelligence that humans have in that once you start to do one thing, you can immediately transfer that ability to something else. And does that exist in computers yet? I mean, where are we at? So that's a very prescient sort of comment is that transfer learning, that's called, this ability is sort of unique to humans in a way that we can, you know, transfer some knowledge we have in one domain and immediately apply that usefully in some totally new domain that looks completely different maybe, but has the same underlying structure."}, {"start": 571.25, "end": 597.2, "text": "And at the moment in computer science, we don't know how to build those types of algorithms. But that's exactly the sorts of things that we're trying to make breakthroughs on at DeepMind. So let's briefly talk about chess. You're an expert chess player, I believe. Not quite a grandmaster, you're a master. Yeah, well, that's still pretty good. But we've been beating grandmasters at chess since 1997 when Deep Blue, IBM's Deep Blue, beat Garry Kasparov, right? No."}, {"start": 597.2, "end": 601.44, "text": "Is that AI or not? It seems that this is a computer"}, {"start": 601.44, "end": 630.74, "text": "Incredibly complex tasks. Yeah, so that's a really interesting example of a form of artificial intelligence. But I don't think it was really what I would call intelligent. And you can see that by the fact that it wasn't able to do anything else at all. Not only really different things like, say, drive a car or something completely different, but even things that are strictly simpler. So, for example, being able to play noughts and crosses, which any human chess master or grandmaster, you'd be able to trivially teach them how to play noughts and crosses."}, {"start": 630.74, "end": 657.66, "text": "OK, now, when we discuss AI, when we talk about machine learning, often we come across a handful of thought experiments which are very useful in trying to unpack and trying to explore the difference between machine intelligence and human intelligence and whether those two things can genuinely be..."}, {"start": 657.66, "end": 687.04, "text": "And the first and the most obvious is the Turing test, which goes roughly like this. Alan Turing, who you can see at your cinemas in the imitation game as Benedict Cumberbatch at the moment, he invented this in the 50s. You have a human player asking questions of either another person or a computer, which they cannot see and they don't know which is which. If the human player can't determine whether his or her opponent is a computer rather than a human, then the computer has passed the Turing test."}, {"start": 687.04, "end": 692.86, "text": "How does this relate to artificial intelligence and machine intelligence?"}, {"start": 692.86, "end": 720.62, "text": "So just before I answer that, I think I should say Alan Turing is one of my all-time sort of scientific heroes. But the Turing test itself is actually not a very good test for real AI. And the reason is that it's very easy to fool non-expert judges into thinking they're talking to a human rather than a machine in the five-minute time window they have. And it ends up becoming a bit of a parlor trick rather than a real test of intelligence. So Turing test."}, {"start": 720.62, "end": 733.76, "text": "Important culturally, but possibly not that significant for artificial intelligence research itself. So, Demis, what would be the test that you would need to satisfy yourself to create true, strong AI?"}, {"start": 733.76, "end": 763.06, "text": "So, you know, we define intelligence at DeepMind as the ability to perform well across a wide range of environments. So I think any good test will have a range of tasks, you know, quite diverse tasks that the same system would have to get good at, including some tasks that it had never seen before and would just have to deal with on the spot. Can you give me some examples of how that would work practically? Yeah, so we at DeepMind, we actually use game environments as a test bed for the intelligence of our algorithm."}, {"start": 763.06, "end": 792.27, "text": "And the reason we do that is because there are thousands of games programmed out there. So we can utilize all this work that games coders have done. And there are thousands of games. So our single system can't possibly know how to play beforehand all these different games. It's got to learn directly from the pixels on the screen. And so that's what we did actually last year was create an algorithm that could play classic Atari games from the 80s just from pixels on the screen and being connected to the joystick."}, {"start": 792.27, "end": 812.88, "text": "OK, so one of the ways you're looking at these is from a gaming environment, which is great for people like us who play video games. But what about for..."}, {"start": 812.88, "end": 842.18, "text": "So then moving forward, and this is something I would love to see, this is why I'm trying to build AI, is if we think about how, let's say science, I'm very interested in the idea of creating AI scientists to assist human science or AI-assisted science. And what I mean by that is having algorithms that can actually find insights in raw scientific data that maybe even human scientists didn't find. I think that would be, you know, if you want a kind of single test of intelligence."}, {"start": 842.18, "end": 868.98, "text": "I think the day that an algorithm comes up with a scientific breakthrough that is published in Nature or Science that it mostly came up with would be, you know, I think that would be a very poignant demonstration of intelligence. When you can start showing machines that are creating new solutions to things that are useful for us, like a cure for a disease or something like that, I think that's, you know, we're starting to get to unequivocal sort of tests of intelligence, I would say."}, {"start": 869.14, "end": 888.74, "text": "Demis Hassabis, founder of Google DeepMind. Now, those of us who enjoy evolutionary biology quite openly discuss sex as often as we can, but it's mostly limited to talk of the animal kingdom, birds having sex with bees, as is my understanding. Sex between humans, though, has always been something of a taboo for scientists."}, {"start": 888.74, "end": 916.85, "text": "But the Institute of Sexology is tackling it head on. It's a new exhibition at London's Wellcome Collection, a frank exploration of sex and the scientists who've studied it for the past century or so. Among the many sex objects on display is Freud's stuffed porcupine, which apparently reminded him of human craving and repulsion for intimacy. How about that? Tracey Logan went to a preview. Parents listening with children present may wish to exercise some discretion for the next few minutes."}, {"start": 917.46, "end": 949.76, "text": "What kind of scientist studies sex? And what sorts of science can you get out of it? In the early 1900s, the contraception campaigner Marie Stopes called Sigmund Freud's psychoanalysis filthiness. Today, I'm suppressing my inner prude to explore the benefits of respectable sexology. My name is Anna Bedard, and I'm the co-curator of the Institute of Sexology exhibition at the Wellcome Collection. And here we are at the start of the exhibition, and we're looking at film of a..."}, {"start": 949.76, "end": 960.05, "text": "What's this? What's happening here? Well, this is the famous newsreel of the burning of the books by the Nazis in May 1933. And what many people don't realise..."}, {"start": 960.05, "end": 989.26, "text": "One of the collections or libraries being burnt here is from the Institute of Sexology, which was a real institute, to which our institute is a homage. And it was founded in 1919 by Magnus Hirschfeld, who was Jewish and openly homosexual. And he believed very strongly in the use of science to create justice, particularly for sexual minorities. So his institute had an ethnography department, it had a huge library, big collection of art and photography, but also more therapeutic activities as well."}, {"start": 989.26, "end": 1017.44, "text": "So in a way, for those of us who think maybe the study of sex as a science started in the middle of the 20th century with Kinsey and that lot, in fact, it's much older than we thought. Certainly, it goes much further back than that. And in a way, we can say that the birth of sexology really happened around the sort of late 19th century turn of the 20th century. So what would people see if they come to this exhibition? Shall we have a look around? Yes, of course. Actually, this is quite shocking immediately. There are quite a lot of, I mean..."}, {"start": 1017.44, "end": 1039.25, "text": "Will children be allowed here? Well, I think we've deliberately not put an age limit on the exhibition. We are naturally a more adult venue, but also what we're trying to do is put sex within a sort of health and well-being framework. And so if people want to bring their children and they're there to supervise them, then that's up to them. And what have we got round the corner? If we go across the classroom section."}, {"start": 1039.41, "end": 1055.87, "text": "Past Sigmund Freud's desk, Margaret Mead's studies of teenagers in Samoa, Kinsey's studies of sex organs at rest, and then to the 1950s laboratory equipment of American experimenters Masters and Johnson. So these are some of the sex machines."}, {"start": 1055.87, "end": 1084.53, "text": "that would have been used in a laboratory-type atmosphere. Some are slightly later than Marston Johnson, but they give us an idea. For example, the one on the right, which is a vaginal photoplasmithograph. So this would have been inserted inside the woman and it would be used to take various measurements that were to do with arousal. So they actually were studying the sex act, not just about, in principle, what people did. Well, it was about the sexual response cycle, so what happens in the body when people are in a state of arousal."}, {"start": 1084.53, "end": 1109.92, "text": "As you can imagine, sexology, the ultimate social science, has always been controversial. Yet today, in Britain, many perfectly respectable scientists do it. My name is Kay Wellings. I'm Professor of Sexual and Reproductive Health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. And I'm a founder and a principal investigator on the National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles, or NACCEL."}, {"start": 1109.92, "end": 1139.22, "text": "I think people generally think that people who go into this field of inquiry have some kind of vested interest, some kind of personal need to look at sexual behaviour. And certainly some of the early sexologists, for example, people like Havelock Ellis and Kraft Ebbing, their personal lives did link with an interest in sexual behaviour. And Kinsey too, Alfred Kinsey, who carried out the pioneering studies in the middle of the last century."}, {"start": 1139.22, "end": 1168.62, "text": "had a very varied sex life and clearly wanted to, it was a deep need to, legitimise diversity in sexual behaviour. I think for our group on Natsal, we were very lucky in the sense that our careers had given us a curiosity about sexual behaviour and certainly growing up in the North, you were not unaware of the repressive forces that governed sexual behaviour. You wanted to know."}, {"start": 1168.62, "end": 1195.22, "text": "Why some things were so off limits. You wanted to turn the silences into science, really. You wanted to investigate and see what was going on here. But our team came into existence in the era of HIV and AIDS. And so we had a ready-made excuse, if you like, for carrying out sexual behaviour surveys. Now, HIV-AIDS gave us the rationale for doing the studies."}, {"start": 1195.22, "end": 1224.26, "text": "And it gave a legitimacy to inquiry into this area. Despite their strong case, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher reportedly blocked funding for that proposed sex survey and alternative funding had to be found. When eventually completed in 1991, the study proved so worthwhile that two more have since taken place with another in planning. So what have they uncovered? Data from the first survey were used not only to predict and prevent further HIV transmission in this country."}, {"start": 1224.26, "end": 1251.14, "text": "But were then used to inform the teenage pregnancy strategy that began in 2000 and the national HIV and sexual health strategy that began in 2001. Data from the following survey in 2000 informed the chlamydia screening programme, HPV vaccination, the sexual health campaigns of the decade and pretty well every policy initiative in the field of sexual health."}, {"start": 1251.14, "end": 1263.89, "text": "Kay Welling's there ending sex with Tracey Logan. If ever a sentence demanded punctuation, that was it. The Institute of Sexology is open for business at the Wellcome Collection until September 2015."}, {"start": 1263.89, "end": 1291.98, "text": "Finally, it seems like November 74 was a killer month for science. A fortnight ago, we celebrated the four decades since we sent out a greeting to the stars in the form of the Arecibo message. Sunday was an even more significant 40th birthday. Well, to be a bit more precise, it was more likely to be the 3,200,040th birthday. Donald Johansson and his team in Ethiopia had discovered the fossilised remains of AL-288."}, {"start": 1291.98, "end": 1321.86, "text": "who became universally known as Lucy. Don told me how he met this young woman who changed his and all humankind's life. Well, Lucy came into my life on the 24th of November 1974. I was leading an expedition to northeastern Ethiopia, into the Afar region, specifically searching for fossilized remains of our ancestors. And it was a Sunday morning. I was out walking in these geological deposits, surveying, looking for..."}, {"start": 1321.86, "end": 1351.42, "text": "Any indication, a tooth, a piece of jaw, a leg bone or whatever, of one of these ancient ancestors. And eroding out of 3.2 million year old sediments, the first bone I saw was a little bit of an elbow. And I recognized it as coming from a human ancestor rather than a monkey or an antelope or something. And as I looked up the slope to my left, I saw bits of a skull, a chunk of jaw, a couple of vertebrae, and I realized that this was part of a skeleton that was older."}, {"start": 1351.42, "end": 1380.91, "text": "So you knew exactly what you were looking for. At least you knew that you were looking for human origins. But the way you've just described it sounds like you just saw the bones sticking out of the dirt. Well, all of these bones, whether they were antelopes or early humans, fell into a water environment, a lake in this case, and were covered very quickly and turned from bone into stone. They were fossilized. So if you envision a layer cake, somewhere in that cake there is something. And if you erode that..."}, {"start": 1380.91, "end": 1409.12, "text": "Now, is the story true that when you got back to camp, the Beatles track was playing and that is how she got her iconic name? Well, yes. Of course, I thought she..."}, {"start": 1409.12, "end": 1424.11, "text": "I want to have a name like Australopithecus, a real tongue twister. But we got back to camp. Of course, it was tremendous excitement. This is a very isolated spot, two days drive from the capital city, sort of a tent city at Camp Hadar."}, {"start": 1424.11, "end": 1446.34, "text": "And we were celebrating that evening. There was great excitement because before that we had found fragments of jaws and teeth, but nothing as complete as this, as 40% of a skeleton, which was unheard of. And I've been, as so many people, a huge Beatles fan. And on my little Sony tape recorder, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was playing, and someone on the expedition,"}, {"start": 1446.34, "end": 1471.04, "text": "She suggested, well, if I thought the skeleton was a female, and I thought it was because of its diminutive size, she said, why don't you call it Lucy? And once that was uttered, there was absolutely no way of changing that name. In the morning at breakfast, are we going back to Lucy's site? How old was Lucy when she died? Do you think Lucy had babies? And all of a sudden, she began to take on a personage. She became a person."}, {"start": 1471.04, "end": 1498.35, "text": "And I think that's part of her great attractiveness for people who are not necessarily specialists in the field of, as it's called, paleoanthropology. Did you know at the time, or how much analysis did you have to perform on the fossilized remains in order to really fully understand the significance of this one new species? Well, this was the really, really intriguing and fun part because where did..."}, {"start": 1498.35, "end": 1524.38, "text": "Lucy and all of the other fossils we were finding at the site. Where did they fit on the human family tree? Were they the same species as another species well-known from South Africa, Australopithecus africanus? Was she a new species? And it took us about four years. When you look at it as a whole, there's a constellation of features, an amalgam of features that show us that on the one hand, she possessed that."}, {"start": 1524.38, "end": 1548.13, "text": "Now, it has been."}, {"start": 1548.13, "end": 1576.06, "text": "40 years since this discovery, since the discovery of Lucy of immense, incalculable scientific, cultural, and iconic significance in our own origins. But how has the field changed in those 40 years? I think that the field has become much more rigorous in terms of working on these fossils. There are, of course, still periods that need to be filled in. But Lucy sparked a..."}, {"start": 1576.06, "end": 1604.22, "text": "Several decades, well, four decades now of intensive new laboratory research right up to, as you know, we have genetic material out of going back 400,000 years. Is what you're saying is that this kind of triggered a maturation of the field that after Lucy, after the 70s, we began to look at these specimens, not just from discovering them and marveling at that discovery, but really analyzing what they meant."}, {"start": 1604.22, "end": 1628.66, "text": "Absolutely. I think you put it very nicely. It really is a maturation. And today, there are scholars from around the world who have gone back to these fossils and discovered something new about them or been able to say something about the detailed anatomy or the internal anatomy through CAT scanning that we couldn't do before. And I was very pleased to enter this field."}, {"start": 1628.66, "end": 1654.4, "text": "The early 1970s when we only had about seven different kinds of fossil humans, seven different species. Today we have at least 20, and I know there are several others lurking on the horizon, but it's showing us that clearly the idea of a straight line from ape to human is no longer a tenable interpretation, that this was a very long series of a diverse..."}, {"start": 1654.4, "end": 1680.77, "text": "And where are the remains now? I know we've got a replica at the Natural History Museum here in London that me and my kids frequently gawp at, but where does the real Lucy reside?"}, {"start": 1680.77, "end": 1712.4, "text": "The real Lucy resides in Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia. There is an Ethiopian National Museum. There is a large building where scientists from around the world study these discoveries there. And she resides in a big gray safe, preserved for, hopefully, forever. Well, Don, I'd like to thank you personally because I was born in January 75, so I wasn't quite ready when you discovered Lucy."}, {"start": 1712.4, "end": 1746.23, "text": "But she's been part of my life for the whole of my life because my dad used to take me up to the Natural History Museum and I've known about Lucy for as long as I've been alive. So I'd like to thank you personally for bringing Lucy back into the world. Well, Adam, thank you so much. And it is special for me, of course, as a scientist, to be celebrating her 40th anniversary. Donald Johanson from Arizona State University and Lucy, the girl with kaleidoscope eyes. That's all for now. I'll be back next week. See you then."}]}