{"url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPsHN1KyRQ8", "page_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPsHN1KyRQ8", "title": "Elon Musk with Walter Isaacson, Vanity Fair New Establishment Summit 2014", "show_or_channel": "Vanity Fair", "date": "2014-10-08", "duration_s": 2187, "type": "interview", "speakers": ["Elon Musk", "Walter Isaacson"], "confidence": "high", "notes": "Includes AI-risk remarks (Terminator/AI demons) and Mars.", "people": ["elon-musk"], "id": "2014-10-08_vanity-fair-elon-musk-with-walter-isaacson-vanity-f", "audio_duration_s": 2186.437375, "worker": "jc-w20", "transcribe_s": 85.4, "model": "large-v3", "segments": [{"start": 8.53, "end": 41.84, "text": "A man who needs no introduction, but welcome. Thanks for being here. Number one on the Vanity Fair new establishment list. Is that the highest honor you've ever had? Of course. That's right. The Nobels are announced. You're doing an announcement tomorrow, and the next day is a Nobel Prize. So if you get all three, that's a great trifecta. Let's talk about your announcement tomorrow. What is it you're going to announce? I'm glad you asked."}, {"start": 44.59, "end": 77.07, "text": "Well, I think I can give maybe one clue, which is that one of the things is already there, and people don't realize it. So we just need to turn it on? Yeah. Wow, cool. And it'll be part of a new car? I used to be a journalist. I used to be good at this. Yeah, it'll be..."}, {"start": 77.07, "end": 106.83, "text": "It'll be different from the current one. Part of what I announce will be different from things in the past. Obviously, it's an announcement. But I can't say... We're not going to talk about the Model 3 or the Model X. The Model 3 would be the $35,000 electric vehicle. You're going to talk about something that's labeled D. Yeah, D, and then there's another thing, which is..."}, {"start": 106.83, "end": 137.74, "text": "I actually would have said the other thing, except it would have been too obvious, and that's the reason I didn't say the other thing. What's the letter for the other thing? I can't say what the letter is. Okay. And what does D stand for? I think the Internet is very good at guessing these things, so they understand directionally. It's directionally correct, but the magnitude is not well appreciated yet."}, {"start": 138.19, "end": 167.6, "text": "And the magnitude of the something else, too. Yeah. That's the really big one, the something else. I kind of got myself in trouble because we had the Model S and the X, and then just for fun, we tried to trademark the Model E. And then Ford sued us, or said they were going to sue us, so we had to change it to the Model 3, so it's S3X. Totally different."}, {"start": 168.34, "end": 196.8, "text": "I guess when I say that we're about to unveil the D and something else, then I kind of dug my own grave on that front. We look forward to it. Why in the world are you doing this? What's impelling you to make an electric special car? I think it's important that we accelerate the advent of a sustainable transport future."}, {"start": 196.8, "end": 226.42, "text": "Better if we move towards electric cars sooner rather than later. And then we can get away from burning oil. And obviously that needs to be paired with sustainable generation of power. That's where SolarCity comes in. But in order for humanity to have a good future this century, we have to figure out a way to sustainably produce and consume energy. And that's what..."}, {"start": 226.42, "end": 255.02, "text": "Tesla and SolarCity are trying to be helpful in that regard. So that's really the purpose of it. It's not as though I think that there's a need for another car company. There's plenty of good car companies, very competitive industry. But there is a need to show that electric cars can be better than gasoline cars. Otherwise, people will continue to buy gasoline cars. When you say better,"}, {"start": 255.02, "end": 281.76, "text": "I'm going to push you back to where you didn't want to go, which is what you're announcing. Better means that it would be faster and stronger than a gas car, which we think electric cars cannot be. Yeah. It will be bigger and faster. Oh, cool. Yeah. Can I have one? I can't wait for that quote to be out there."}, {"start": 281.76, "end": 313.12, "text": "It's like about to unveil the D. It's bigger and faster. I know. There have been a lot of jokes that Kara Swisher started today that we have to steer away from. She has a conference called All Things D. Why did you give away or open up the intellectual property? The patents. Yeah, yeah. We sort of open source patents in order to accelerate the advent of electric vehicles. That's the main reason."}, {"start": 313.12, "end": 339.02, "text": "I think people think that maybe there was some competitive reason or that this would somehow be helpful to Tesla because more people would enter electric cars and somehow there would be rising tide lifts all boats. But actually, I think the open sourcing of patents does slightly impair our competitive position on balance."}, {"start": 339.02, "end": 370.19, "text": "But I'm hopeful that it generates enough goodwill to overcome that competitive impairment. But I came to the conclusion, at least on a personal level, that patents were kind of like buying a lottery ticket to a lawsuit. So why would you want to do that? What drove you into the electric car business? Was it really sustainability for the planet, or was it just the intellectual curiosity of it all? Actually, so if you..."}, {"start": 371.66, "end": 398.13, "text": "If you go back to when I was first thinking about electric cars, I was in college, and it was really more from the standpoint of the need to transition to some transport means that was sustainable, independent of whether there was an environmental impact or not, because if we're burning oil to move and that's not a renewable resource, then..."}, {"start": 398.13, "end": 427.55, "text": "Then independent of any environmental impact, we must find some alternative or there will be economic collapse. And civilization would sort of crumble because we have to revert. So that was actually originally why I was very interested in it is just because it's, I mean, I think from a physics standpoint, it's really obviously the way to go is electric motors."}, {"start": 427.55, "end": 457.2, "text": "I mean, kind of crazy to do something else, honestly. And then the environmental thing grew over time. It became evident that the environmental impact was quite significant because we're putting so much carbon into the atmosphere that we're fundamentally changing the chemical makeup of Earth's atmosphere and the oceans, too, because of the CO2 that gets absorbed into the water and creates carbonic acid."}, {"start": 457.81, "end": 487.44, "text": "If we don't take corrective action, the probability of a catastrophe will increase over time. Eventually, there's certainty of a catastrophic outcome. The longer it takes us to make that transition, the greater the probability of something bad happening. When I think of Tesla, what's the fundamental good that Tesla can achieve? It would be..."}, {"start": 487.44, "end": 514.0, "text": "To accelerate the advent of electric vehicles perhaps by, you know, for fortunate a decade or something like that. Because it'll happen anyway. Independent Tesla was not around. So that's, I would say that's a really fundamental good. And since we're making cars, I mean, it seems like we should try to make really good cars. And, you know, maybe make the buying experience a lot more pleasant."}, {"start": 514.0, "end": 544.02, "text": "There's a Peter Thiel line, as you know, about we were promised flying cars, but we got 140 characters. Do you think that other innovators, people not like yourself, aren't really shooting as high as they should be when you're doing things from space shots to electric cars? Do you think there should be flying cars? Yeah. Okay. Am I missing something? Gosh, I think that would be fun, don't you?"}, {"start": 545.2, "end": 575.68, "text": "I'm not sure. I mean, I think there should be vertical takeover and landing, supersonic air transport. That obviously should be the case. We had that 30 years ago, and now we don't. Supersonic, sure. Yeah, no, it's kind of innovation for big things has actually slowed down, it seems. Is that true? I think whenever you have a large industry that is monopoly or duopoly,"}, {"start": 575.68, "end": 603.55, "text": "Forcing function for innovation is weak because innovation tends to come from new entrants to an industry, and if the barriers are... Like Tesla into the auto market. Yeah, yeah. When there are huge capital barriers to entry, then it's very difficult for new entrants to enter that industry. It's like being in a forest of giant redwoods. And in that situation, innovation is weak because if you sort of..."}, {"start": 603.55, "end": 632.06, "text": "I think it's fairly easy to understand this because if you're, say, a senior executive in that company or CEO, let's say, if you do something incremental, you're very unlikely to be fired. If you do something bold and it doesn't work out, you're very likely to be fired. So then they do incremental things. You mentioned a moment ago the environmental sustainability thing that's really big that you worry about."}, {"start": 632.06, "end": 662.8, "text": "Your other big thing that you worry about is sort of machines getting out of control. Explain that. Or the artificial intelligence singularity. Yeah. I don't think most people understand just how quickly machine intelligence is advancing. It's much faster than almost anyone realizes, even within Silicon Valley. And certainly outside Silicon Valley, people really have no idea. Why is that dangerous?"}, {"start": 665.01, "end": 695.73, "text": "If there's a superintelligent, particularly if it's engaged in recursive self-improvement, if there's some digital superintelligence and its optimization or utility function is something that's detrimental to humanity, then it will have a very bad effect. It could be just something like getting rid of spam email or something, and it concludes, well, the best way to get rid of spam is to get rid of humans."}, {"start": 695.73, "end": 723.79, "text": "The source of all spam. I know we've all watched Cal in 2001, but why would we lose control over our machines? There are no data points showing that our connection to machine has ever been loosened. Actually, I think the thing to do would be to plot the progress of digital intelligence versus time, and then to maybe curve fit or extrapolate that progress."}, {"start": 723.79, "end": 753.42, "text": "And see where that leads. But you're talking about machines that are not just intelligent, but have intentionality. Is that right? They have the intention of their utility function. Which is what we programmed in, right? Yes. But it can have unintended consequences. Is that propelling, no pun intended, your Mars mission ideas? No, I think it's more likely than not that if..."}, {"start": 753.42, "end": 782.26, "text": "If there's some digital superintelligence apocalypse scenario, it would probably follow people to Mars. Not necessarily, because of that utility function. If it simply has utility function that is arbitrarily confined to Earth, it would be totally fine doing that. I mean, this is... It's just... So what is... Let's get to the Mars mission. Why do you feel that is something we should be aiming at?"}, {"start": 783.34, "end": 813.3, "text": "There's two main reasons for Mars becoming a multi-planetary. One is the defense of reason. It's life insurance for life as a whole. And there's some value to having that. In terms of a small percentage of our economic output, like let's say half a percent or maybe even less of our economic output to ensure that the light of consciousness as we know it propagates into the future for a much longer period of time."}, {"start": 813.3, "end": 840.03, "text": "And so there's that defensive reason. And this is the first time in four and a half billion years since Earth was first formed that it's been possible for life to move to another planet, to become multi-planetary. And that window may be open for a long time or it may be open for a short time. I'm actually quite an optimistic person, so I'm hopeful that it'll be."}, {"start": 840.03, "end": 869.52, "text": "Open for a long time, but maybe it'll be open for a short time, in which case we should take action now and not delay. You've been a fan of science fiction books. Have they actually influenced you? Sure. I'll just say the other reason, which I actually find personally more motivating with respect to Mars, which is that it would just be the greatest adventure ever and very exciting. And I think we need things in life that are exciting and inspiring. It can't just be about solving some awful problem."}, {"start": 869.52, "end": 898.3, "text": "There have to be reasons to get up in the morning. And I was talking about the books you've read and the science fiction. I notice you're a science fiction fanatic. Do you think maybe you've read too much science fiction? Maybe half. That's certainly possible. So where we are right now is we've, I think, on the SpaceX front, we've made evolutionary but not revolutionary progress. We're hoping to make revolutionary progress in the coming years."}, {"start": 898.3, "end": 928.26, "text": "But the key breakthrough that we're aiming for is to be able to have the rocket booster come back and land and be able to reflight again. Why is that important? Because that's not the way we've been doing it, right? Yeah, it's been expendable rockets up until now, really. Except for the space shuttle was partly reusable. But it was extremely difficult to refurbish for flight. 10,000 people needed to work nine months to refurbish the space shuttle."}, {"start": 928.26, "end": 958.03, "text": "So what we really need is rapid and complete reusability, like an aircraft or a car or really any mode of transport besides rockets is reusable. Horse, bicycle, you can think of almost anything. But imagine if that mode of transport was not reusable. It would be very unfortunate in the case of the horse. But even in cars, if you could use a car once,"}, {"start": 958.03, "end": 986.7, "text": "And you have to buy a new car every time you took a journey. Odds are you would not buy many cars because it would be very expensive. So, reusability essentially opens the door for reducing the cost of space flight by a factor of 100 or more. And if you do this, how much of it will be government funded in a way? Aren't you under a lot of contracts with government?"}, {"start": 986.86, "end": 1013.65, "text": "In the beginning, there was no government. I funded SpaceX entirely with the proceeds from PayPal. We got our first government contract about five or six years after starting the company from NASA. But I should say about NASA's maybe a quarter of our flights, three quarters are commercial."}, {"start": 1013.9, "end": 1038.99, "text": "But the way we have been doing innovation in this country, especially starting with World War II, has always been a combination of government, private enterprise, universities, and that is now dissipated. The government is not doing as much basic research. Do you think that's going to be a problem for the United States? Well, I think the government does quite a lot."}, {"start": 1038.99, "end": 1068.16, "text": "I'm not exactly sure whether we're at the right number for basic research. I mean, I'm a fan of research, so I'd probably, I'd be in favor of spending more money on that, allocating more resources to basic research. But I think the government's doing quite a bit. I mean, NASA's doing a lot of things. We've obviously got the rovers on Mars. We've got the Hubble, things like the Hubble telescope, the upcoming James Webb telescope."}, {"start": 1068.16, "end": 1099.33, "text": "There are planetary probes and Earth science missions launching all the time. So NASA's doing quite a lot, actually. What other big things, like electric cars, space shots, whatever, do you dream of? Well, I think of space and cars a lot, obviously. We've eliminated flying cars. Well, I'm not sure about the flying cars. That's not to say I don't think there should be flying cars."}, {"start": 1099.33, "end": 1129.3, "text": "If the sky was full of cars flying all over the place, it would affect how things look. It would affect the skyline, and it would be noisier, and there would be a greater probability of something falling in your head. Yes, right. Those arguments. Those are not good things. On the other hand, you could be able to go from one place to another faster. But I think, actually, if you eliminate the choke points in cities,"}, {"start": 1129.3, "end": 1156.06, "text": "Then there's really not that much traffic outside of the choke points. So you look at sort of, in suburban streets, you don't see a lot of, I mean, the traffic doesn't choke things. It's really on the highways and major arteries, and it's because the cities grew way bigger than the major arteries. And how would we fix that? Tunnels. Tunnels. What about autonomously driving cars? Would that help? That would help, certainly, yeah."}, {"start": 1156.06, "end": 1187.12, "text": "I'm going to open it up, but I have one frivolous question while they bring the lights up. Everybody so far today has been touting how much they love Silicon Valley, the HBO show, and you said some bad things about it. Why don't you like it? Well, first of all, I should say that the article was not very accurate that was written. It was just one article, which was simply not an accurate article. I thought it was okay."}, {"start": 1187.66, "end": 1214.05, "text": "Mike Judge did an amazing job with Office Space. That's one of my favorite movies ever. He may be here, so be nice. Great. He was here a few minutes ago. No problem. Anyway, so a movie like Office Space just really nailed it. I don't think Silicon Valley, the show, quite nails it. It's not quite right. So that's my objection to it. It doesn't quite..."}, {"start": 1214.05, "end": 1245.52, "text": "Get it right, in my opinion. But I've heard that the later episodes are better. I saw the first two. Yes? UC Berkeley. Hi. I used to work in large-scale renewable energy, mostly solar. And I was wondering, given all the release of the patents of the batteries and all the knowledge on small-scale renewables like SolarCity, is there..."}, {"start": 1245.52, "end": 1274.93, "text": "Something coming about like large renewable energy storage from all the batteries patents in Tesla. Tesla is going to do a stationary storage in a very large scale way because it's very important to pair battery packs with solar power and for wind it's even more important. So with the Gigafactory that we're creating in Nevada, we're going to create..."}, {"start": 1275.25, "end": 1309.01, "text": "Many, probably tens of gigawatt hours per year of stationary storage on the battery front. So yeah, there's a lot coming, for sure. Hi, my name is Tina. I'm originally from China. So my question is relevant to China market. How would you, in your perspectives, how would you forecast about the electric vehicles, the demand in China, and how's the Tesla strategies in the coming year? Thank you."}, {"start": 1309.01, "end": 1336.24, "text": "Sure, I think things are going fairly well in China. We've had a very enthusiastic response. And yeah, I think long term, it seems likely that China would be the biggest market for Tesla. So yeah, I'm really, really optimistic about things over there. Is it going to be bigger than North America? It seems likely that it would likely be bigger than North America, yeah, in the long term."}, {"start": 1336.24, "end": 1366.88, "text": "How about the government regulations and the local competitors there? The government's been pretty good. I mean, there is certainly, in terms of the incentive structure, it does favor local production. But overall, I think it's not been too much of an issue. The government's been great so far. Thank you. Hi, I'm Manu. I'm a sophomore at Stanford."}, {"start": 1366.88, "end": 1394.58, "text": "All of your work has been bringing people from place A to B in the fastest and the most environmentally friendly manner. There's also another kind of research happening in the valley where people are trying to avoid transportation at all. We call it virtual reality, right? So I can be in my dorm and I can see you speaking with the same level of contact on my Oculus Rift as I am here right now taking the Caltrain or the Tesla or even a SpaceX rocket in the future."}, {"start": 1394.58, "end": 1424.8, "text": "How do you think will virtual reality tie in the future of transportation which you are working on? Thank you. Well, maybe we're in a simulation right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, seriously. Sometimes it feels like that. Yeah, I mean, I think it is going to, from what I've heard of Oculus Rift and some of the other immersive technologies,"}, {"start": 1424.8, "end": 1456.53, "text": "It's quite transformative. You really feel like you're there. And then when you come out of it, it feels like reality isn't real. So I think we'll see probably less physical movement in the future as a result of the virtual reality stuff. And when we come out of what we're here now into this virtual reality, we'll think it's real?"}, {"start": 1456.53, "end": 1484.27, "text": "I mean, there's some interesting things here on the virtual reality front. I mean, just on the whole notion of a simulation, which is that if you just, if you extrapolate into the future and say, well, how good, let's say, will video games be in 100 or 200 or 1,000 years from now? If there's continued improvement and you're in a full-body haptic suit with a sort of surround vision and, you know, you..."}, {"start": 1484.27, "end": 1515.44, "text": "It becomes, beyond a certain resolution, indistinguishable from reality. And there are likely to be millions, maybe billions of such simulations. So then, what are the odds that we're actually in base reality? Isn't it one in billions? Is it? I mean, I can give the counter argument, but I'd rather you give the counter argument. Obviously, this feels real."}, {"start": 1516.56, "end": 1546.54, "text": "But it seems unlikely to be real. My name is Danielle. I'm an architect from Palo Alto. I just completed a net zero passive house, and I'm now a fellow at the Stanford Business School. And I'm working with a group of students on a project to come up with the most innovative ways to solve big problems in cities. We've identified Detroit as our prime target."}, {"start": 1546.54, "end": 1577.23, "text": "Two questions. What do you see as citywide innovation? And since women don't ask, as we're taught, I'm going to ask, would you come down to Stanford and brainstorm on this with us? This may sound trite, but I honestly think tunnels should be given a lot more consideration. So if you look at a city, you have all these"}, {"start": 1577.23, "end": 1604.61, "text": "There are apartment buildings and office buildings, and they are on many levels. In Manhattan, I don't know what is an average of 30 stories or something like that, but then you've got a street, which is one story. This is an obvious issue. You have a 30 to 1 ratio of... So you should have multi-layered highways underground, stacked up. Yeah, and you can have tunnels too. The tunnels don't have to follow the buildings. They can be..."}, {"start": 1604.61, "end": 1634.51, "text": "They can go diagonally. Through the basement, yeah. Yeah, and you can have as many levels as you want. So it's really just the cost of building the tunnels. But really, a tunnel's a hole in the ground. Like, how hard can it really be? I mean, just... So it seems like if some entrepreneurs put their effort into building tunnels, you know, it would be transformative to cities around the world."}, {"start": 1634.51, "end": 1667.5, "text": "I'll certainly consider giving a talk. I mean, I'm in Palo Alto every week, so I'd certainly be open to it, sure. What other things besides tunnels, hyperloops you've talked about, other things that are great visions that could transform a daily what we call reality, which I assume is reality for the moment? Yeah, I mean, within cities, it's sort of tunnels and tubes."}, {"start": 1667.89, "end": 1697.38, "text": "I mean, for long distance travel, I really think that the vertical takeoff and landing electric supersonic aircraft is the way to go. And I think it's very doable. So that would be the way to go for long distance transportation, like if you're going more than like 500 miles, because then you have any to any, you solve the any to any problem over long distance. For shorter distances, because you have a time to climb and a time to descend penalty,"}, {"start": 1697.38, "end": 1727.06, "text": "Below 500 miles, aircraft are not as good. So that's why I think some sort of evacuated tube is a better way to travel. What is an evacuated tube? Well, just something where you've reduced the air density so that the drag is dramatically reduced. Then it's as though you got teleported to altitude. Right. And you can go much faster and not have to have the climb and descend issues."}, {"start": 1728.08, "end": 1757.1, "text": "Hi, I'm Lawrence. I'm a sophomore at Stanford. I run a music startup. We all know that you have all those really crazy ideas in the best way possible. But how do you come up with those ideas? Could you tell me more about your creative process? And also, once you have those great ideas, how do you go about capitalizing those really ambitious ideas if you have very few limited financial resources?"}, {"start": 1758.22, "end": 1788.93, "text": "Well, the great thing about software or anything which just involves intellectual capital of you and your friends, you and a few friends, is that you can just do it. So that's why doing some sort of internet thing or software thing is great as an initial company to create. That's why Zip2 and PayPal, they gave me the capital to attempt to do more capital intense activities."}, {"start": 1788.93, "end": 1819.2, "text": "As far as idea generation, I think I tend to think of things from a sort of physics standpoint, like from a first principle standpoint, what would be the best way to accomplish something and then pursue that. And that's also a good way to determine if something's far from its optimum. And like on rockets, for example, one could say, oh, you know,"}, {"start": 1819.2, "end": 1848.66, "text": "You could reason by analogy and say the rocket's going to cost a certain amount because that's what prior rockets have cost. Or you can say, well, what is a rocket made of? What are the material constituents? What do they weigh? What's the cost per unit mass? And that sets the limit asymptotically for what a rocket can be. So if you can figure out some creative way to rearrange those elements into a rocket shape, then you can achieve a much better outcome. That's the first principles approach."}, {"start": 1848.66, "end": 1877.3, "text": "And I think also just combining ideas from different industries is really helpful for innovation. So what have people discovered in one industry and can that be applied to other industries? That's, I think, also a great source of ideas. But usually you just struggle on a solution and try a bunch of things. Some of them don't work and most of them don't work and occasionally one does."}, {"start": 1877.81, "end": 1899.33, "text": "You mentioned the startup of PayPal, which is a great innovation that happened in how we pay for things. That seems to me an area in which there hasn't been as much subsequent innovation other than Bitcoin as there should be. In other words, quickly transferring money, especially to people you don't know or whatever, is..."}, {"start": 1899.33, "end": 1928.64, "text": "To me, maybe I'm wrong, far more difficult than it seems like it should be. Are you somewhat disappointed with the way PayPal then proceeded, or are you disappointed with the lack of innovation in the digital currency environment? PayPal hasn't moved much since when it was bought by eBay. The long-term vision that I had for..."}, {"start": 1928.64, "end": 1958.9, "text": "PayPal in finance was to, well, it sounds a bit strange, to convert the financial system from a series of heterogeneous, insecure databases to one database. Or, well, not one database, maybe there'd be a few more. Money is just a number in a database. That's what it is."}, {"start": 1959.22, "end": 1988.56, "text": "Primarily an information mechanism for labor allocation. And the current databases are not very efficient. Like there are these old legacy mainframes that don't talk to each other very well, have poor security, and only do their, and do batch processing once a day. Are you glad PayPal is being spun off? It's probably the right move. And what would you do with it? Well, I think..."}, {"start": 1988.56, "end": 2018.14, "text": "Convert it into more of a full-service financial institution. You want to have all the financial services that somebody needs in one place seamlessly integrated together and easy to use. I really care about the consumer. I think a lot of banks don't seem to care that much about the customer."}, {"start": 2018.14, "end": 2049.01, "text": "There's an opportunity to be like a really good bank, effectively, but much more than what people think of as a bank. Do you think Bitcoin will be disruptive in that way? I mean, now it's a speculative currency. Will it be something that will be what normal consumers will use and will disrupt the banking industry? My opinion of Bitcoin is that, I mean, I think Bitcoin is probably a good thing, but it's essentially,"}, {"start": 2049.01, "end": 2078.96, "text": "I think it's primarily going to be a means of doing illegal transactions. But that's not necessarily entirely bad. Some things maybe shouldn't be illegal. The combination of Silk Road and Bitcoin will save us?"}, {"start": 2080.27, "end": 2108.14, "text": "It will be useful for legal and illegal transactions. Otherwise, it would have no value as a use for illegal transactions because you have to have a legal to illegal bridge. I don't own any Bitcoin. I'll let you get the last word, sir. I promise it'll be fast, Elon. Bob Shukai from Thomson Reuters. India just launched a mission to Mars, $75 million to get that thing. Was it, as Astro Teller said, a miracle? Or is there something fundamental about..."}, {"start": 2108.14, "end": 2138.26, "text": "The Indian space industry that allowed them to do a mission like that for so cheap, and if so, is there something that we can pick up and learn from that? I think it's a very impressive mission, given that it was executed by a government entity. It's really, really impressive. Impressive no matter who's doing it, but from a cost standpoint, impressive because it's being done by a government entity. Ultimately, we have to be able to do missions to Mars for much less than that."}, {"start": 2138.26, "end": 2165.82, "text": "Otherwise, it will be impossible to establish a self-sustaining civilization on Mars because we'll have to transport millions of tons of cargo, millions of people, and the cost of moving to Mars has to be affordable. Otherwise, people won't be able to go. So it has to ultimately come down by a couple orders of magnitude from that level. A couple orders of magnitude. I'd say well below a million, yeah. Elon Musk."}, {"start": 2165.82, "end": 2179.15, "text": "Great innovator. Thank you very much. And good luck tomorrow. We'll be looking to see what was right under our nose when you announce it tomorrow, sir. Thank you."}]}